The CWB Association Welding Podcast

Episode 254: The Hidden Cost with Jeremy Lake

• Kevin Roy • Season 1 • Episode 254

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:00:53

The CWB Association brings you a weekly podcast that connects to welding professionals around the world to share their passion and give you the right tips to stay on top of what’s happening in the welding industry. Subscribe, listen, and stay connected to the people who keep the world welded together

Buying welding wire by the pound seems practical until you calculate the true cost. Jeremy Lake, Welding Specialist at ITW Welding, explains why the cheapest consumable can end up costing the most once you factor in labour, spatter, grinding, and rework. If you've ever had to justify a higher consumable cost, this episode will show you how to let the numbers tell the story. 

Follow  
Website: https://www.millerwelds.com/en-us
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/millerwelders
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MillerWelders

Enjoyed the show? Subscribe, leave a rating, and share it with a welder who needs a nudge today.

There is no better time to be a member! The CWB Association membership is new, improved, and focused on you. We offer a FREE membership with a full suite of benefits to build your career, stay informed, and support the Canadian welding industry.  https://www.cwbgroup.org/association/become-a-member 

What did you think about this episode? Send a text message to the show!

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to the CWB Association Welding Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Hawaii. Let's flip up the lid and spark some conversation. Welcome to the CWB Association Welding Podcast. As always, I'm your host, Kevin. And today I have with me a special guest, Jeremy Lake. Jeremy, how are you doing? Hey man, I'm good. Yourself? Good, good. So, Jeremy, where are you from and what do you do for a living?

SPEAKER_01

Um, so I'm out of Victoria, BC. Um, I'm a welding specialist for ITW Welding North America. So I look after brands such as Miller, Hobart, Bernard, Tergascus, Smith. That's kind of the umbrella of brands that I look after. So I cover um from Victoria all the way to um Winnipeg, so Western Canada. Oh wow. Yeah, it's a new role for me. I just started as a specialist about six months ago, but I've been working as a territory manager in British Columbia here for six years with Miller before I switched over to that specialist role.

What ITW Means For Welders

SPEAKER_02

Okay, and what is ITW for people that don't know?

SPEAKER_01

Illinois Toolworks. Okay. So we always kind of no one really knows, like, or not a lot of people know what ITW means, or or knowing that it's Miller. So we we typically just call ourselves Miller. Yeah. Um, when we talk to people, but yeah, ITW is the parent company that bought Miller and Hobart and all those companies um a few decades ago. But okay.

SPEAKER_02

I didn't know that. I've been in the trade for over 20 years, and uh yeah, Miller was Miller, and you know it's it's weird because it was, I don't know, maybe 10 10 years ago, maybe 15 years ago, where like all the bigger companies started scooping up the little companies, they're all fighting for them. Yeah, so is is that what happened with with Miller?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I believe so. It was um a ton of acquisitions a few decades ago, or maybe in the 90s, I believe. Um, but yeah, yeah, it's it's been a while, but that's kind of the the name of the game, it's just acquiring good companies and then just going from there.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, so Victoria, British Columbia. Have you always lived there? Are you from there?

SPEAKER_01

Um just moved there, moved here about a year ago. I was on the mainland um in Tuassin. Actually, the same um place as Birdman. Oh, yeah. Yeah, actually, him and um him and our kids went to uh had gymnastics class together. That is awesome. So getting ready for this, I just listened to a couple podcasts and it was him. I was like, oh, cool, I'll listen to him for sure. The welding community is small, hey. It is, man. Yeah, so yeah, I was in Tuassin, went to high school there. I kind of bounced around a little bit. I grew up in a small little town called Tumblr Ridge, who where everyone knows where that is now, um for unfortunate reasons. But um, and then moved to Grand Prairie and then down to Tawastin. And so I was there until about a year ago when I decided to move my family over here to the island. Very cool.

SPEAKER_02

So

From Millwright School To Welding

SPEAKER_02

when did you get introduced to welding then?

SPEAKER_01

It's funny, I never I never even welded when I was in high school or when I was a kid. It kind of just happened my old man's uh a millwright by trade, and he was kind of like, hey, out of high school, um you should get into trades. So I did a millwright pre-apprentip at uh BCIT, and you did a little bit of welding, and it just kind of happened that like out of that pre-apprentip, I ended up getting a welding job, um, building like aluminum parking gates for for a company in Delta. And so I just like you know, went under this old old guy's wing, and he kind of taught me I used an old spool gun um with like a 252 with a spool gun. I remember that thing as a as a kid as a 20-year-old, man, this thing is so heavy. There's just like there's gotta be something lighter than this. Gotta be something better. Totally, yeah. But um, so I did that for a couple years and um did some installation, but most of it was kind of welding and shop helping and that kind of thing. But um I ended up getting out of the welding industry and then ended up going to school, went to Uvik. That's kind of what brought me. That's my whole kind of Victoria kind of island thing there. I I came here for four years. I was like, okay, I get it. And uh actually did a psychology degree um randomly enough in consumer psychology. Wow. So wanted to be a counselor for for a long time. I actually worked with kids with autism for a couple years while I was doing that. Um did some welding as well for like a summer job. I worked at this like steel recycling plant under this A-ticketed welder. He was great as well. And then once I was done my degree, did a bit of traveling, and then came back to welding for for another couple years.

SPEAKER_02

Is that when you ended up in Grand Prairie?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I did about a stint for six months before or after my degree um to save up to do some backpacking. I did Southeast Asia, I did a four-month stint over there. So moved up to Grand Prairie, that's where my mom and my brother live, built these big steel tanks and did that for about six months and 40 below weather, it was terrible.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of different stories coming out of Grand Prairie, right?

SPEAKER_01

100%.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

Psychology Degree And A Career Pivot

SPEAKER_02

So then what made you decide not to to pursue in the psychology? What made you decide to kind of come back around to welding?

SPEAKER_01

You know, it was kind of like there was an option to go back. Like, I feel like with psychology, you have to go back and do your master's degree. You have to like keep doing more education. And you know, having to pay for my that degree, you know, I was 40 grand in debt for that degree. So I needed to start making some money pretty quick. So it was either do that or go more into debt, which would have been another two-year stint of like say 80 grand. So it would have put me in about 120 grand worth of debt that I just was kind of humming and hawing about like, do I dive in and do this? So I just thought, hey, let's just go back to work for a little bit, make some money, and then you know, I'll decide after that. But I got the opportunity to go into sales, um, which I took and I was so happy that I did. So I did packaging sales for about three years. I was selling corrugated boxes and beer boxes, and no way, yeah, super random.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you gotta tell me about that. Like I'd I just a welding podcast, but how do you get into selling boxes?

SPEAKER_01

Honestly, it was a buddy who there was an opening in the company, and he and he got me an interview, and I went in and kind of tried to win them over. I had no sales experience at all, and and they took me in and I was very thankful that it happened. So it gave me the sales experience that ultimately kind of led to uh Miller reaching out to me on LinkedIn and getting the job that I have today.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So you you never know out there, right? You get an opportunity, you take it. You never know where it's gonna lead.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And I mean, I like the idea of driving around, kind of meeting people and doing this, and kind of the flexibility. You know, we've had um like our group of friends, there's quite a bit of sales guys, and they always talk talk to you about how great it is. You're going out for lunches, you're there's just nice flexibility to that, and I knew that I wanted kids eventually, and that I kind of needed that flexibility at the end of the day. So it was great. I loved it. It was it was a ton of fun. Got to learn about you know, board grades of corrugated board and all this stuff. That I actually met up with a buddy like a few weeks ago, and we were talking, you know, bored again. And I was like, oh man, it's been a while since I talked like this before, but um very

Sales Skills And LinkedIn Opportunities

SPEAKER_01

thankful that I got that opportunity.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so Miller reached out to you on LinkedIn. I still gotta get this LinkedIn, man. I gotta get over.

SPEAKER_01

I swear by it now. Like after that opportunity that came through, I tell all my friends, all my buddies, I'm just like, hey, go on there, fill it out, just be present on there with just like your experience. There could be anybody that you know is looking for someone specifically like you, you know, like there it just turned out that there wasn't a ton of welders that were also sales guys, right? It's really hard to get those two as like a higher on instead of having to like implement that on the company side. So me having like eight years um welding experience with like at least three years worth of sales experience, it was just like you know, it just worked out that they reached out. I went through, I mean, it was the gauntlet's like a gauntlet trying to get through, you know, there's a ton of a ton of um interviews and stuff, but luckily it worked out, but it was weird, man. It was during COVID. They hired me like June 1st um of 2020, and they're pretty much just like, hey, you can't really um meet anybody. So um just like read some spec sheets for a few months, would you? It's just it was such a weird process because you know when you get a new job and you just want to like get into it, and I'm the type of guy that just wanted to get into it, and it was just like, hey, we have to wait. You know, this guy's retiring, you're gonna take over for him, but you can't go and meet anybody yet. It was very strange, but that was very thankful he brought me on.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but I I find though is like you know, anyone can be a salesman, anyone can sell anything, but the welding world, I think it's different because like you can't just go into a room of welders and be like, this is the greatest thing ever, and then not know anything about welding.

SPEAKER_01

Totally, 100%. Like, I and even more so now with you know the price of equipment's gone up, the price of everything's gone up. So I think customers are are needing a little bit more, you know what I mean, in terms of like going in, doing the demo. They really want someone with you know a background in welding, someone that understands what they're doing, can kind of talk the talk and and go through it with them. So I think that's what's kind of allowed me to be successful, is I can kind of talk to a lot of the stuff that goes on in the shop because it was something that I did personally. Yeah. So yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

That's something that I would like too, is that if you're if you're gonna sell me something, I want you to be there, you know, when I have an issue or where something goes wrong. You know, like can I call you up and be like, hey, can you come by or can you walk me through this? Like, we need that nowadays.

SPEAKER_01

Totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Now that you're doing demos and stuff, like what's your what's your

Filler Metal Demos That Boost Productivity

SPEAKER_02

main focus? What's your main field that you're that you're kind of dealing with right now?

SPEAKER_01

So I've like, I've just kind of like turned towards filler metal. Filler metal's been super cool for me, like the portion of my business where it's like I've got equipment, I've got like Bernard, where it's guns and consumables, and then it's Hobart filler metal. Um, for whatever reason, I've always just kind of like transitioned into enjoying that part of our business, like the consumable overturning business, where you're going in and doing demos for customers where you know they could be running, say, solid wire on dirty material and they're getting you know a ton of spatter, and you get to go through like the pre-weld and post-weld kind of labor costs, and you kind of just monetize the whole situation from before the weld to after the weld, and get to help them, hey, this maybe this is a product for you because you know you're not cleaning your steel, so there's more silicon and manganese in this metal core wire that helps burn off these um things in the from the steel, and that can help you, you know, increase deposition rates, do all this kind of stuff. So, um, as a specialist, that's kind of been my big um thing lately is going in and and helping for you know, helping big conversions by helping the customer kind of be more productive.

SPEAKER_02

That's really cool that you touched on filler metals and and what different additives do. And I really like that you mentioned that, you know, like okay, at this company, you're not prepping your steel. So if that's out of the equation, this is the wire that'd be good for you. And like, you know, I'd I'd been working for the same people for the last 20 years, and you know, we've got salesmen that come in and they just like drop a roll of wire and say, try this. Yeah, and like I'll hear it's it's like I if I hear nothing from the guys, it's it's good news. Like the wire is the same as the other stuff, which is the same as the other stuff, but like you actually go into the the the the chemistry of it all, totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like we typically don't just go in and drop a roll of wire off. It's like you need to know so much more about what's going on, like I said, the pre-weld, post-weld stuff. Because you know, Hobart Brothers, we we supply four different D70 or 70 C6 metal core wires, for instance, and they all have different applications. You know, there's one for an everyday application, there's one where you're doing multi-pass, there's one's doing if you're worried about you know manganese exposure, there's a ton of different options there. So um you kind of have to go in and figure out the customers' wants and their needs and and what's right for them first before I mean dropping off a roll of wire or running a demo.

SPEAKER_02

Do you think nowadays like you you go in and try to you know do a cost analysis? Like, do you think nowadays people just want the cheapest stuff? You know, they don't want to pay a lot for it, or is there still you know, like I need a quality product here? I don't care if it costs a little more.

SPEAKER_01

You know what? This last year it's been like cheap wire, cheap wire. Like, you know, everyone's hurting a little bit, especially in Western Canada. So everyone's looking to pinch, you know, as much as they can, but ultimately, you know, it's it's changing the the focus from dollars and cents on the page to like, hey, you know, to monetizing labor costs around what's happening, you know, what's happening with that one weld. Um, so that's if we can get in front of the customer and go through that whole process, and like we do this free of charge. We do this like in front of the customer. Hey, we'll do the demos, let's let's monetize, you know, how long it takes someone to clean all that spatter off when you're doing this, is you could be buying like a dollar fifty per pound solid wire, but turns out you're spending like two hours per part grinding it off. So like we're we're missing the point here. So it's kind of like um trying to, it is it has been tough lately because you know, people are looking at that dollar per pound on that price sheet. But once we sit down and we go through the whole process, then you know you can kind of see that you know it it's better most of the time for people to pay a little bit more for a higher quality wire, just so that everything that's surrounding it kind of lessens. Because the big labor cost big cost is labor, right? When we look at a pie chart of the the cost of what it takes to be a make a weld, 85% of it is typically labor costs. And we're we're talking about 10% for consumables. So that's the what I love about the job that I do because it's kind of like an aha moment for most customers when you kind of lay it out and you go through that whole process, and it's super cool, like going through that and be like, okay, yeah, absolutely. It doesn't actually matter what the cost of the wire is because it's saving me so much in labor costs, right? So helping customers get to that point is super fun, and then watching them be way more productive, you know, sending messages six months later, hey, now we finish two more trailers a week than we normally do. Like, that's that's super cool, and that's what I love about the job.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's huge. Like huge, yeah. Like that you put it that way, it's like, oh, 80% is your labor. Like when even when I'm quoting a weld or whatever, like we're doing a big structural job, how long is it gonna take per weld? And I'll be like, oh, it's five minutes per weld, we got a thousand welds on this thing, and that's that's it, right? Yeah, and I I don't usually think about you know the prep or the post weld cleanup, like so. The fact that you go in there and do that is really cool. Like, what kind of what kind of companies do you deal with? Big, small, medium?

SPEAKER_01

Typically mine's um like middle to to large. Um, me being a weld specialist. We have another um um another position, which is a process improvement um specialist. We call him a pit member, and he goes for the big guys. He does like full-on, you know, six months to a year type stuff, where he goes in and spends days and days with the customer and welds with them all day. So that's something that I do as well, but on kind of like a medium scale. So anybody running typically we base it off of like pounds per hour. So anyone running through 10,000 to 150,000 a year pounds is something where like the district manager or the territory manager will contact me and be like, hey man, we need you to come in to say Regina is a place that I go to, and hey, can you come in? Like, do the demo, we'll go through the whole thing, we'll monetize everything before the weld and everything after the weld and seeing if there's any suggestions that we can make. Sometimes there's not, sometimes they're doing it just the way that they should, but um, sometimes they're not. And then we make those suggestions and then come back and do I run demos with them, weld with with the guys on the floor because um it is we do get some pushback, as as you can imagine, right? Because any anything new for a welder is is difficult, right? And I get it, I was I was one too, so I fully understand it all when I saw a sales guy come in and drop off this you know new flux core wire, and I'm like, man, I got this one dialed in. Like, I'm not gonna try to switch over to this, you know what I mean? What is this thing pulse? What are you talking pulse? Like so I get it, but there's a there's a ton of value in just like instead of dropping off a roll of wire, there's there's like I said, a ton around it that can help better that process.

SPEAKER_02

Well, next time you're in the neighborhood that you'll have to stop by the shop.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, man. I was I was in Regina. I've been there twice now since in in this role. Um, and the plan is to come back there in October. Okay, so I'll I'll hit you up. Cool, man.

SPEAKER_02

I'd love that. And you know, give you a tour of the shop. And if you can help us out, be more productive, I'm all for it.

SPEAKER_01

Totally, man. Yeah, happy to help. But I and this is all just something we just do free of charge. We just come in and do this, man. There's no cost to it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So

Deposition Rates And Wire Selection

SPEAKER_02

that being said, about productivity and stuff, it's like, where where do you find the balance between you know, like the speed, the quality, the consistency? Like, how do you how you how do you determine that for a company?

SPEAKER_01

Um, when it's semi-auto, it's all based on the the welder skill level. There seems to be kind of like um a ceiling at about honestly like 20 pounds an hour. We can get up to like you know 24, 25 pounds an hour when it comes to you know high deposition metal core. You've got like the hyperfill process, the two-wire process. We have a high deposition mid process with a one-wire extended stick out process where we've seen you know upwards of you know 23, 24 pounds an hour. But I find the sweet spot with handhelds where everybody can weld with it is around you know 15 to 18 pounds an hour. Typically, we'll go in and see guys running comfortably at like 10 or 11, you know, eight pounds if they're running solid wire. So it's just getting not all wires are made the same, like not all flux cores are made the same, not all metal cores are made the same. There's a ton of difference to each type of wire, and it all comes down to um like the thickness of the sheath and and how well it it melts off because the thinner you have the thinner sheath that you have, the more melt off you have. Um, so if you have a thicker sheath metal core, it's gonna act more like a solid wire just due to the amount of um power that has to go through that thicker sheath. Um and if there's less, like you can melt off more um more wire for the same amperage. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So you can increase deposition rates with like a thinner sheath wire that'll allow you to kind of deposit more for the same amperage that you know, say a thicker sheath would require more.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Do you see a lot of solid wire still being run out there? Or are more people going to that dual shield process or a metal core?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so out it's it's strange. Like now that I'm covering all of Western Canada, um, I see differences in processes all across. It kind of depends on which company's been around that area for a while. But in western BC, in Alberta, typically it's you know, if we're running in flat and horizontal, it's metal core all day. Whereas, like, you know, in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, we're seeing a ton of solid wire processes. And I think like our competitors have gone forward with solid wire pretty aggressively. Whereas we're we're metal core, you know, cord wires, that's that's our thing. We see a ton of value, and but we have to kind of look at again that overall process because it's gonna cost more to run a cord wire over a solid wire. Um so just having, like I said, going through that whole process to understand why you should pay more um just due to the labor costs and the speed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Speaking from my shop is we run you know 90% solid wire 035 and 045. Right. We do custom fabrication, we do repair, we do structural. So it's yeah, you know, makes sense for us, but you you know, on those big jobs, those big skids and stuff, it would be nice to just pour down a ton of wire and not have to deal with you know the the rest of it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and that's kind of what I've seen, honestly. Saskatchewan and Manitoba, it's like they run, you know, there's 035 and 045, it's all ag stuff, right? As you probably know, you know, a ton of thinner gauge material where it's um you can see there is uh something for solid wire, but there's other options like an 035 metal core. You can run it in pulse, you can do this, you can do a bunch of other things, depending on the amount of spatter and cleanup that you do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Now, before we started this episode,

Regional Differences In Welding Processes

SPEAKER_02

you were telling me that you do quite a bit of a public speaking and presenting. Sure. Um, I've got in the notes here that you presented at welding industry day this year. So what was your uh what was your deal with that?

SPEAKER_01

That was a ton of fun. I just kind of we've I my biggest thing this year and last year is kind of to get more involved with CWB. I think that's something that um ITW maybe or Miller, you know, we've kind of lagged off a little bit in the past few years. So I've been really trying to get that relationship back and going again. Um, we've done a few things with with CWB in terms of uh skills competition here in British Columbia where it's like a tri-trade thing. Um, yeah. And man, yeah, we'll get we can get into that a little bit later because I want to chat about that. But um, I was just talking to a couple people through CWB um on like getting some ads for the magazine, and they just kind of offered, hey, do you want to put in you know a paper or this? And we were asking for people to present on the industry thing. I was like, you know what, sure, I'll I'll I'll send something in and see what happens. And then they they ended up picking me to come out, so I was super excited for that. And it was something that I wasn't like overly familiar with, like subarc. It was about our high deposition process where we heat the subarc wire coming through the torch. It's a brand new, brand new process we've we've had for the past few years, but it and honestly hasn't been marketed a ton. And so like the the benefits are crazy and it's super exciting. Um, so me being not having any subarc um experience except through Miller, I really like forced myself to get to know everything about subarc and just dive into the process. As being a specialist, like it's not something our territory managers really deal with, all these specialized like laser welding and hot wire subarc and all of these, like you know, outside we call them like our the 20s of our business because it's not not for everybody, but it's kind of niche and somebody still needs to be there to support it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, cool. So tell us a bit more about this. What what did you call it? Resist resistive heating?

SPEAKER_01

Resistive heating. So we use a secondary power source, which is essentially you probably know what an XMT 450 is. We use um that secondary power source and it hooks up, it sends two to five volts. And what it does is we hook it up to us this torch where it's got one nub connected to the the ACDC power source or DC power source for subarc, and then it's got the other nub hooked up to the XMT. And as the wire comes through the torch, it like creates a red hot system where it comes through the torch red hot, and when it hits the arc, the wire is already at a thousand degrees. Wow. So the benefits of that is obviously depos increased deposition rates, increased speed. Like we're seeing 30 to 40 to 50 percent increase in these numbers, which is like that's crazy. And for sub arc, like where you're already running at high deposition already, it's it's gate, it's a game changer for sure. It's pretty exciting.

SPEAKER_02

That's like that's kind of it's nuts to me. I just said it's crazy, but like it's it's like why hasn't anyone thought of this before? Like we're preheating we're preheating our our metal already, like we're preheating our base metal, but we never thought about the wire.

SPEAKER_01

And like the huge benefits that seem to, you know, with the increased speed, increased deposition, the one benefit, massive benefit, is that when you increase speed, you decrease your heat input. So that's been like that's been the biggest thing for everybody is like everyone's fighting heat. You're pouring all this wire and you you're going you know 10 inches a minute, super slow, um, because you're trying to fill it as much as possible, but you're creating all of this heat. But if you can put the heat into the wire and then blast it into the joint, you you know allows you to go twice as fast, then you're you're drunk, and your heat input values by like over half. So that's where we're seeing huge benefits, and it's with the metal cord wire as well. So we see 10 to 15%

Resistive Heating Subarc Explained

SPEAKER_01

increase on the metal core wire, just switching from solid to metal, and then you know, and add a 30 to 40 percent with this heated system.

SPEAKER_02

That's that's really cool. Um, you know, like it it it relates to me because whenever I do like thin gauge stainless, and like you know, I I'll tell some of the guys around the shops like, well, turn it up a little bit and move faster, you'll get less distortion, right? Because 100%, you know, most of the time you want to be slow, you want to put in your dabs and whatever, and weld an inch or two and then stop, cool it off, go somewhere else. Yeah, but like sometimes I'll you know weld a corner up and just blast it through, and then I'm done. And here we are, no distortion. And that took me years to learn that, and took me talking to a bunch of people to just get that knowledge out there.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we've got the option of like we've got this little heat input calculator and deposition calculator, it just comes with the job, and like I'll just plug in different travel speeds just to see hey, if we go this fast, if we deposit this much, what's our heat input? And it's essentially, yeah, if you double your travel speed, you half your heat input.

SPEAKER_02

That's that's amazing. I think there's a lot more of this going on, too, like a lot more of the science going into welding. Like, there's always been the people above that you know are designing this stuff and making the procedures, but now I see it more in like people like myself, people like yourself that actually are caring about the science behind welding. Do you see that out there?

SPEAKER_01

Um, yeah, I mean, with the again rising prices is like the the effort to be more technical, have new, you know, the newest technology is is you know something that in the welding industry, everyone's trying to do the next awesome thing, right? And this one is definitely like I feel like a step above um a lot where it's like it's a big game changer. There's a lot of new technologies that come out and they're great, but this one in terms of if you're doing subarc, like it's a massive, massive, big change to to the production that you could have.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so since you've discovered this change, this new this new technology, where do you see subarc going in the next like five or ten years?

SPEAKER_01

Well, like the people that are running subarc are typically people that you know customers are building bridges, building, you know, tanks, building, you know, big pipe, that kind of stuff. I would say the positioning of because it's moving faster, we need to have better technology in terms of tracking, right? There's lasers, there's a mechanical thing. There's typically a guy sitting there watching it and kind of moving it as they go, but there are lasers, there's different. So I I can see kind of, and and typically what we see with robotics and cobotics is like that implementation of AI just to take the operator out of it. Say if you've got like a rim, we've got a customer that's doing mining rims, and they wobble on the on the rolls a little bit and they walk a little bit. So they need to make sure that someone's watching it and making sure that you know when it's welding, it's welding in the right spot. Yeah. So I could see when you speed things up, that makes it a little bit more difficult, right? To keep it in the spot where you want when it goes super slow, you can kind of very you can dial it in really easily, right? You can go for a smoke and come back and then keep dialing it in. But um this one is because it's moving a little bit faster and those rolls are moving faster, I think um there's gonna need to be some adjustment for maybe like the fit up in the rolls and making sure that um the welds stay where they're supposed to. I could see that.

SPEAKER_02

It's funny when you started talking there. I was gonna bring it up. It's like, do you see AI and robotics coming into this? And and you just mentioned it. Yeah, AI comes up a lot in in these you know podcast episodes. For sure. Um how do you feel about AI?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I use it every day, right? So I've I've found there's great value if you can if you can harness it and if you can understand it and use it for you know for the better good of what you're doing, then yeah, absolutely. You know, we've got a cobalt system that we've paired with Novark Technologies out of North Band. They do those WS or SWRs cobots. Um, so we've paired with them, and they've got a system where you can put this camera on on a cobalt, and it's honestly it's taken us, I think, 18 months, just ripping coupons for this like AI camera to to go through kind of every scenario and what it needs to do given each scenario, so that it actually learns hey, if I go in and I start welding and then the gap

AI Cobots And Smarter Automation

SPEAKER_01

starts moving a little bit, what are the settings that that cobalt's gonna have to do to make sure that it fills appropriately to make sure that the weld is at the same height as you know the previous four inches or whatever? So there's 100% a use for it in in welding for sure. And I think the big thing as well is there's wild welding AI that that I just mentioned, and then there's also like um software in terms of putting CAD files into a software that kind of like auto-populates, or it's like, okay, when you put a piece in, here's all the weld joints, it just automatically just sorts out where all the weld joints are instead of having to go in one piece at a time and just plug it in, it's just like boom, here's all your weld joints, and then you kind of adjust accordingly. Yeah, so honestly, it's just like speed of programming and then like adjustment for um like faults, like fit up and that type of thing. I could see that that's where AI would come in. But I honestly feel like fit up and and just better people are using lasers now to cut, like fit up is getting much better. So it's it's interesting that AI is getting better for you know less or worse fit up, but the fit ups getting better with different technology. So it's gonna be interesting to see how useful that AI is going to be with better fit up all around, you know what I mean? If there's even going to be a need for this AI adjustment because everyone's fitting up their pieces appropriately now or better than they used to be. So, do we need to have that adjustment? Are you gonna need to pay all of this money for the software to bring it in and put the camera on it? Is it gonna be, you know, is it gonna be good for the business? I just I don't know.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_02

We're not we're yeah, we're not quite there yet to kind of deal, right? Do you ever do you ever see like a cobot and AI replacing a welder completely?

SPEAKER_01

No, they'll never replace them completely. You're gonna need an operator there to understand it all and to program it all. Um, but then again, we're we're right at the beginning of AI. So I honestly I can't see it at this point, right? There still needs to be an operator, there still needs to be someone who understands, especially with the cobalt um realm. They really need to understand welding, and you need to understand, you know, um gun angle, speed, travel speed, all that kind of stuff. What type of wire do you? Yada yada. Like there needs to be a little bit of knowledge there. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

Until yeah, until the AI learns how to do that, then we're in trouble.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. But it doesn't everything like oh, I make sense for like robotics. First of all, it needs to get to a situation where it's robotics, so you need to be going through a ton of pieces, right? For it to actually make sense. It needs to be like high production welding um to actually go through that. So not every scenario is gonna need a robot, not every scenario is gonna need a cobot. It's you know, it's gonna free up some time for those specialty welds that you know most people don't want to do the monotonous stuff, right? You don't want to do tens of thousands of these little pieces, like that's what that stuff's for, honestly. And then free up the time where you're paying, you know, your best welder 50 bucks an hour instead of doing these little tabs or doing something that's worth that amount of money, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I I believe that too. Automation is great, you know, for those menial jobs, those jobs that you know you said it exactly correct. You could take that person who's got trained skills and put them to work somewhere where it counts. Yeah, totally. With your time out there in the industry and visiting all these shops, do you do you see like some shops kind of falling behind if they don't keep up with technology? Or yeah, you know, like they always say well welding shops are always gonna make money no matter what, but what do you see out there?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I see what I do see is shops adopting automation and watching them skyrocket. Right? So there's a few customers we have here in in Western Canada that they bought into the whole automation thing. They bought into it. It's it is a little bit of a growing pain because you have to learn how to use the robots, how do you how to do the whole process, you need to get operators trained. There's there's certainly like a little bit of a process of getting people into that. And it's tough in BC though, because there's a lot of job shops and a lot of like things that come in that are that are always changing. So here it's been a little bit tougher where it's just like, okay, we need something, and this is where the AI comes in to help a little bit, is that the programming time, say if I got a job of 500 parts, and then you know, in another in next month, I've got another job that's completely different. How do I get into automation to where this actually makes sense? To where I'm not spending all this time reprogramming, rejigging, doing all of this. So I think we're getting we're to the point where this AI is helping these kind of job shops to kind of like get into these maybe smaller runs that are always changing all the time. It's really easy, say like Saskatchewan and Manitoba, where you've got these large runs of egg pieces, right? That it's always going to be the same. You're just running them through all the time. That makes sense. You know, that makes sense for robotics, but when it's always changing, that's that's the difficult part. So I've found in BC specifically that it depends what you're doing, right? And I think we're going in the right direction to where this new AI software technology can actually help these smaller job shops that are having to like jump. They were doing forestry equipment and then this, and you've got to do this, and you're you're always jumping around trying to do different things just to stay afloat. I think, like I said, the new AI will will help hopefully customers like that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And on the welding technology side of things, like what kind of machines does does Miller have that kind of help with that production or or ease of weld or ease of, you know, you can just pick it up and go. Like what kind of stuff are you uh are you seeing out

When Automation Makes Sense For Shops

SPEAKER_02

there? Are you selling out there really?

SPEAKER_01

Like on the automation side?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, whether it's just handheld or or whatever, like what's what's kind of your bread and butter that you're seeing out there?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, most of it is wire. Like everyone's just running wire, like stick out out in the field a little bit, but for the most part, if if we're seeing out in the field, they're running, you know, self-shielded flux score. But um, a lot of people are looking at automation, like you know, everyone talks about it year after year. There's not enough welders to do all this work, yada yada. So there's been a huge uptick in the last couple years with people being like interested in automation. So you we have that talk with them, and it's it's easy to go through. We've got this software where we can throw some parts into a robot online and we can tell them, hey, we can pump out that part in a certain amount of time, and just gives them kind of an ROI because it's an expensive you know, buy-in to get a robot or a cobalt. You need to make sure that it's it's gonna make sense to where you buy it, it's not gonna drown you in costs, right? You need to make sure that it's gonna work for you, yeah. And then, but for the most part, you know, we're seeing shops just you know buying straight CV kind of um wire machines for the most part.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah, yeah, that makes sense, you know. Like you you focus primarily on wire, but what about uh, you know, stick electrodes? Like I I heard somewhere now that the you know the 7014 and the 7024 is not going to be produced anymore.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah, maybe yeah, I don't know, man. Like it's um it's weird. I don't see stick electrode down here, but I go up to Fort St. John in Dawson Creek, and it's still all stick electrode, right? It's blue shield, it's eSAB, it's okay 55. Like been doing it forever. Same kind of thing. Like, you know, don't you know fix it if it's just been working. Yeah, right? But it takes a lot of equipment to move over to wire. Like it's really easy to just have a stinger and plug it into your you know, engine drive and away you go, right? As opposed to you get that, then you got a suitcase and then you got a roll of wire and it's 33 pounds or it's 20 pounds and you're lugging that, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and some gas, where's the gas come from? What's the composition gonna be? Blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, totally, right? So there's some instances like when you're more remote, I guess. That's where stick electrode is still a great process to use. But when you when you're getting into production and and that kind of stuff, like even the pop most of the pile drivers down here, and they're not using um stick electrode anymore, they're using self-shielded wire, right? Yeah, because there's just so much more deposition and speed you can get out of it. And we typically like when we go in, we talk about efficiencies of certain consumables. So, like stick electrode, for instance, has about a 50% efficiency rating. So, what that means is if you buy, say, 100 pounds worth of stick electrode, 50 pounds of that is actually going into your weld, right? So you're you're buying 100 pounds worth of stick electrode, but you're only getting about 50% of that that goes into your weld. Whereas if you're using self-shielded wire, you get about a 75-77%. So you get about a 25% savings just on your efficiency rating in terms of what you're paying for for your consumables. And then when you get up into metal core, it's like 98%. So typically, if if you're doing, you know, if you're doing say 100 feet of weld, um, you're gonna be buying the most from Sick Electrode and then Fluxcore and then Metal Core. You should be buying the least amount because the majority of that consumable is going into your weld metal.

SPEAKER_02

Now, I'm really glad you said that because that's not something I think about every day. It's that yeah, I don't even know when the last time I had that thought, you know, like this is this is great information for people, but yeah, like yeah, you're paying you're paying for all this metal or essentially, and you're not it's actually not going into your weld, it's falling on the floor, flux. Yeah, or people are throwing it in the scrap and half rods all the time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02

So, Jeremy, you you mentioned you're getting more involved with CWB. Um, you mentioned that you did a trier trade.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we've been doing it for the past couple years. Um, we've had the great opportunity to to do that in BC out at Langley. So it was kind of a trier trade thing. We we started two years ago, and the idea being, you know, I go into a lot of high schools and I talk to a lot of high school teachers, and man, they're struggling. I feel for those guys. Like when they tell you, you know, they get five thousand bucks, like just as an example, this guy's like, I get five thousand bucks for the entire curriculum for all of the trades that includes material, that includes equipment, that includes safety equipment. I'm just like, how the how do you even do that? You can't, you can't, so it's it's whoever goes out and you know got buddies that's got an old one and he fixes it himself and he brings this welder in, it's just like 50-year-old Hobart welder that you know barely works. You know, how do you get people interested in the welding? You know, where we talk about a welder shortage and we're not supplying the kids with anything, like we're not

Stick Electrode Efficiency Versus Wire

SPEAKER_01

getting them stoked on the trade at all. Like I never touched a welder, you know. Like if there was a digital, a brand new digital machine there that like I'm you know, as a kid, like I'm I'm used to seeing screens, and that would get me going a little bit just to like be interested in it, you know, they don't have the capital to even get close to that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you think about five thousand dollars, like it's a a steel order, like you you're buying some coupons. It's half your budget. They're like, how do you how do you make the rest work? It's just insane.

SPEAKER_01

It's up to the shop teacher to, you know, it's it's honestly up to them to to go out and find that and ask for things. And good shop teachers will will do that and try to find ways to to find material and welders. So so, anyways, the whole idea of of that backstory is uh we wanted to try to give back to high schools. So we thought that like by doing this try-a-trade thing, we could bring in students. And the first year we did it, we actually had UFB, which is a university out of Chilliwac. They built they cut us a bunch of coupons, and it was an Easter egg because it's over April. And so it was like a little Easter egg, a fillet weld, like a circular fillet weld. We realized afterward afterwards that doing a circular fillet weld for people that have never welded before is actually a little bit difficult. So the next so the next year we're like, okay, we're just gonna do something straight, you know, where they just have to go one direction instead of turning. But, anyways, we made it into an Easter egg because the idea being that we wanted them to take it home and show their parents, and we had like a little Miller symbol like engraved in it. So we ended up that first year having like 200 kids come through to try welding. That's super awesome.

SPEAKER_02

It was crazy, 200 people.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it was it was full the whole day, and then I think the second year that we did it was like 300 kids that came by and just just tried welding. It was just like 035 solid wire, but you know, there were kids like eight, nine years old coming in and trying it, and like you know, just getting interested, you know. I I never had the opportunity to do anything like that that just like can pique that interest when you're a kid, and that you're like, you know what, maybe I want to do that later on.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you're you're nailing it right now because like if you don't get kids interested when they're young, if you don't put the tools in their hands, yeah, then then they're coming into high school. Okay, the high school doesn't have a welding program, but you're still interested in welding. Like, what are your options? Now you're out of high school and you you're not sure if you even like welding, but you're supposed to go sign up for this welding program, right? Like you need you you need to do it way earlier. You got to get people excited about the trade.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean it's it's so strange that like we don't um fund programs like this. Like we complain that there's not enough welders yet, we're not supporting the base level of the problem, right? So it's it's extremely frustrating seeing that because like guys call me all the time, like, hey, can you you know, guys in high school, hey, can you got any helmets you can offer up? Like, we get tons of calls from people, and it's like you can't help everybody out, but you help as much as you can. So, um, in these instances, we wanted to do the tri-a trade thing to where we would donate the equipment after the tri-a-trade thing. So uh we would talk, you know, it's it's still in its infancy, but the idea being eventually I'd like to have people just like apply and explain their scenario that hey, we've we've got this scenario where we've got we haven't had a welding oof, and we really want we've got a lot of kids that are interested in it. I'd like to like hear those stories and try to help in any way where it's like we can take that equipment and maybe donate that equipment to these high schools in need that don't really have like a welding program at all. Yeah, so we've been able to donate about five full systems in the last two years to to five different high schools in BC.

SPEAKER_02

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01

Super fulfilling, like really awesome. And um yeah, a good part of my job that I enjoy is like trying to give back as much as we can, right? Um, because it's just the support's not there from the base level. It's it's frustrating. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So what do you think needs to change uh about I don't know, society that we start focusing on this stuff? Like, where where do you see it lacking?

SPEAKER_01

Um government funding is is huge, right? Like we we as like welding manufacturers, we try to get involved as much as we can to try to help that process. There's a ton of grants. I know CWB helps with with a bunch of grants. It's just and that's another thing too, is like getting these kids to know that these grants exist, right? So that's a big thing. Like I worked with um, you know, I volunteered with the AWS and BC, British Columbia, um, for the past two years, and um nobody knew about any of the scholarships or the grants. Like, and it's it's kind of the same with CWB, I would think that that some kids just don't have access to that information or just knowing that it's there, it's kind of just word of mouth. Word of mouth. It's kind of like get that money and get it out to kids that need it. So maybe it's just you know, more talking about these these grants and these opportunities that you know CWV gives or the government gives. You know, we're starting to see some government grants to um to customers. Like

Try A Trade And Supporting High Schools

SPEAKER_01

we've seen some um like million dollar, $750,000 donations to these um structural steel companies here in British Columbia. We're finally starting to see some money kind of funnel into the to the whole to the thing as a whole. I know it's been pretty tumultuous, the welding industry for a while. So there, I mean, it maybe because there hasn't been a ton of like a lack of support, but we're starting to see that change a little bit. Yeah, I think it's it's it should be big in the next few years, especially for for BC. I know there's supposed to be a big uptick in a ton of mining and you know, some pipelines opening up. So so maybe there'll be some some more grants, some more funding coming in, but we we honestly need to get people interested in welding at that young age, that baseline level. That's that's that's number one. Like, because it typically just comes from like buddy's dad, kid's dad was a welder or like you know, farm boy, typically, you know, that the the dad just like showed them welding, right? But what if what about kids that don't have that? Right? That could be great welders, also, but they live in an apartment building in Vancouver. Yeah, you know what I mean? How do they get how do we get those kids like involved in enjoying welding? It has to start from the high school level from like grade nine to twelve, or else it's just it we're just gonna continue to have the same issues we're having where there's not enough welders.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so it's it's important to get them excited early, and then we have to support them, you know, throughout their career, throughout their their learning process. Yeah. So looking ahead, Jeremy, what excites you the most about the future of welding and manufacturing, I guess.

SPEAKER_01

Um robotics is like super exciting, right? It's uh it's so much fun to kind of although it's it's I know it's scary for most welders for the most part. It's it's super exciting. There's there's a ton of new stuff happening, and just the we're moving at such a rapid pace in terms of technology. So all of this new stuff coming out is extremely exciting to where like it could be game changers for for local companies, right? It can change you know, that trailer manufacturer in BC that you know has been struggling to to compete in the states, you know, they've added a few robots and they've been able to kind of meet their quota now and do better. So there's also laser welding, super cool, right? We talk about that quite a bit. You know, there's there's a there's a niche fit for it for sure, right? But just like, man, these new technologies and new ways of just joining weld, joining metal together is is super exciting, and I'm kind of glad that I'm like in the space that I get to experience it, you know, as it comes along.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, laser welding comes up quite a bit too in these episodes, and yeah, like it they used to be super expensive and niche, just like you said, and now cost is coming down, technology is better, and now industry and also certification is catching up to this stuff too, where okay, you can do this certified weld with this piece of equipment now. Well, possibly the possibilities are kind of endless. Like, you're not just welding a gate together with this laser. Like, I I've even seen some, you get this little, it's like a three-foot by three foot laser, like you lay out with it, you clean your metal with it, you cut your metal with it, you weld your thing with it. It's just this little three foot by three foot box in the corner. Like, yeah, it's kind of insane.

SPEAKER_01

It's pretty crazy, and to think it's just like refracted light, you know, it's just light coming through the machine that's just like hyper focused, right? Yeah, but the weird thing about laser welding, like we've never really had a technology that came out the way that laser welding did because it came out on Instagram, right? Yeah, and you go and you have meetings with customers, and it's like, yeah, that's not really like reality how that you know how it works. There's there's an enclosure, it's extremely dangerous. You need to have like gloves on, you can you know blow holes through your fingers and you can go blind and all this kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02

So it's it's been an interesting, you know, job trying to navigate the what people think it is through Instagram and what reality is, but yeah, versus reality, and then you've got a bunch of people on the internet that are not using the technology safely or how it's intended. No, then you're like wild, you know, like let's just point that at this piece of paper over there and light that on fire from across the shop.

SPEAKER_01

It's wild, man. Like, and being like a laser specialist um for Western Canada as well, it's when you when you go through the science of it all, it's like you can blast you can blind somebody from four football fields with this thing. Yo, you know what I mean? Like it's it's it's pretty dangerous when it comes to that. And mind you, there's safety around that where at least for our system, you need to be touching the material, and there needs to be some form of continuity to where you're not blasting it all over the place. There needs you need to show the machine that you're touching the metal before you start welding. It needs to be an enclosure and all this other stuff.

SPEAKER_02

So when I demoed one, I you know I put the ground right onto the gun to make that loop, and yeah, that I was just and then I was using it like a TIG torch, like that's what I'm used to doing. But here you go, right? You could do that too, yeah. Yeah, 100%. Oh, geez, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, robotics is it's been super fun to watch. It's moving at a fast clip, right? And now everybody that was in the robotics game is now in the welding robotics game, so now there's all of these there's a ton more competition. There's just

Future Tech And Staying Open To Change

SPEAKER_01

you know, the the fight has gotten a little bit more intense in terms of getting to the next step and the technology and that type of stuff.

SPEAKER_02

So in your opinion, uh like we've talked about what the cool parts of the future is like what is what's the biggest problem out there that you see shops dealing with, and and how are you gonna fix that problem?

SPEAKER_01

So the biggest one, honestly, I see all the time is is basing your decisions off of the price that you see on the sheet that some guy comes in and gives to you. Like, you need to look at the bigger picture. You know, you're missing out on your massive labor costs, is what we're seeing. It's like where people are spending time on stuff that they shouldn't be spending time on. There's new technology, there's new ways of welding, there's new wires that do this because they have different things inside of them. There's different ways, you know. I think that that's what I see is that guys are just looking at, you know, whatever the purchaser says to buy or not. Like have somebody come in, have somebody look at your overall process, kind of question everything that you've been doing. It's always like the most um the guys that do really well are always questioning, am I doing the right thing? Not not the guys that are being like, Well, we've done this forever, we're just comfortable with it. That's where it gets dangerous. Where you're just like, if you're not willing to, you know, progress in welding, like the welding industry is progressing fast. And if you don't progress with it, and you're not like at least open to seeing somebody and just like seeing it for yourself and at least demoing it and trying it, like it doesn't cost these people anything to try something out for the most part, right? You'll get a rep to come in and go through that whole process with you. But I would say the biggest thing is is guys, you know, companies staying stuck in their ways because they've done it forever, they're comfortable with it, the guys are resistant to change, the guys on the floor don't want to change. We've had somebody come in a ton of times and nothing, da-da-da. Like that's honestly what I've noticed is like be open to you know, us sales guys, you know, some people don't like CNS, some guys do, right? Just be what I would say is just be open for people coming in and just at least showing you what they've got because there's like I said, things are changing and changing fast. And if you're not changing with it, then you're gonna be left in the dust a little bit.

SPEAKER_02

I agree with you 100% on that one. If you're not if you're not open to seeing the new technology to even hearing what it is, like I remember when Paul's Paul started coming out now, like just look at what we're dealing with, right? You have to be open, and you sometimes it's it's like you said, it's a big investment up front. But if you don't make that investment, you won't be in business next year, let's say.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's right. And like nowadays, like I said, through through different roles for different companies, most people will come in and kind of build a report for you, at least, to be like, hey, if you were to spend $25,000 on this new welder that is giving you pulse and all of these other features, this is gonna save you X, Y, Z amount of time, and then you can kind of figure out to where it works for your company. Most companies now are gonna come in and do those reports for you, just because, like I said at the beginning of our chat, it's like it's not free anymore. Welders not free anymore, they're expensive, they're expensive. So I would just say let guys kind of prove themselves out a little bit, be open to to new technologies and new stuff coming in because it can be super beneficial to you to move them forward. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_02

And it's not just it's not just the people up top in the company that are moving the money around, it's it's the the guys and girls on the floor. You gotta be you gotta be interested in this stuff.

SPEAKER_01

You gotta be, man, because like most of the kids coming up, they're really good with change, right? All the newbies, all the guys that are young in their 20s, they're like, yeah, what's what's new, what's faster. They're they want they want change, they're okay with change because they're so used to it, I guess, in their lives. You know, there's a new iPhone that comes out every year, da-da-da. They get a new da-da-da. They're used to that. Whereas the older guys, maybe the baby boomer generation, they'd be doing the same thing for those guys, they are a little bit tougher to kind of change, right? Because, like I said, when I was doing it, you get you get comfortable in what you're doing, and when something comes in and you have to kind of adjust that comfortability, guys, it you know, it doesn't feel great at the time, right? But then, you know, the end goal is being

Final Takeaways And Closing

SPEAKER_01

more productive, being more speedy, that type of thing.

SPEAKER_02

Well, Jeremy, thanks very much for being my guests tonight. I mean, amazing information, and like I said, um, if you're in the neighborhood, definitely stop by the show.

SPEAKER_01

I'll call you up next time, and it'll be there in a couple months. So, not a problem.

SPEAKER_02

Right on well, thanks everyone for listening to the CWB Association Welding Podcast. Make sure you like, share, and follow, and uh send this to anyone you love.

SPEAKER_00

You've been listening to the CWB Association Welding Podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, rate our podcast and visit us at cwassociation.org to learn more. Feel free to contact us if you have any questions or suggestions on what you'd like to learn about in the future. Please subscribe and thank you for listening.